TALES OF WOE-THE PLOT THICKENS
78RESPONSE TO MY EMAIL
In my previously published hub I described the situation I found myself in trying to help an old friend. I sent an email to EBM Technologies on February 28, 2010 asking for more information on their astounding scientific discovery.
On Tuesday, March 2,2010 I received a reply from EBM Technologies to my email. The reply was from someone calling themselves Krisztina Sulyok M.Sc., B.Sc.Econ., General manager. The body of the email is below under response 3/2/2010.
I wanted to make sure they were scammers so I responded to their email asking for clarification. That email is below under MY RESPONSE. Today March, 4,2010 I received a response to my inquiry which is listed below under RESPONSE 3/4/2010.
My conclusion is after that response.
THE EMAILS
MY ORIGINAL EMAIL
To: EBM Technologies
Dear Sir,
As a graduate electrical engineer I am interested in the generator shown on the Internet. I am particularly interested in how you claim to overcome the Law of conservation of mass/energy. Please forward me all pertinent information on this revolutionary scientific discovery. Having practiced for over 40 years I am astounded by your claims!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom Whitworth
BSEE WVU,1968
By late the next day when I had received no reply I emailed X the email below.
X,
I have conducted a search on EBM technologies, and have come to the conclusion that their claims are scams. I have found nothing in their claims to refute the laws of physics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass
Tom W.
EBM TECHNOLOGIES RESPONSE 3/2/2010
Dear Mr. Whitworth:
I attached hereto our Table I/B and the "Measuring Usable Excesss..." material for your information.
With best wishes,
Krisztina Sulyok M.Sc., B.Sc.Econ.,
General manager
ATTACHMENTS
PAGES BELOW
A Measuring Usable Excess “Over Unity” Shaft Power of the EBM E-720 Unit in Budapest, using Joule’s Method in Checking his 1st “Chief” Law of Thermodynamics;
-and-
the Increase of such Sellable Energy Due to Increased Iron Weight
By Professor L. I. Szabó
Introduction
To numerically test his 1st “Chief” Law of Thermodynamics, Joule used in his experiment the device shown in Figure 1. as follows:
1. In a well sealed container the water inside is stirred (agitated) by the rotating blades and the temperature rise due to the friction between the blades and the fluid is measured.
2. The blades are rotated through the shaft by the two (2) Q [kg] weights as they descend over a distance of h [metre];
3. Since the container is well sealed (“adiabatic container”), no heating energy produced by the rising temperature could escape from the container and thus the increased “inner energy” increase of the water “A” can be simply measured as:
EQ (I) A=m*c(t2-t1), where:
(a) m = mass of water,
(b) c = specific heat of water,
(c) t2 = increased temperature of water, and
(d) t1= temperature of water before the agitation of the fluid began;
The shaft energy “M” being provided (“transmitted”) by the two (2) Q [kg] weights to increase the inner energy of the water can also be easily measured as:
EQ (II) M = 2*Q*h [metre kilogram], where
(a) Q [kg] = weight,
(b) h[metre] = distance,
(c) M [metre-kilogram] = torque = shaft energy;
Since no energy can escape from the container and only shaft energy “M” is being provided/transmitted to increase the inner energy “A” of the water, Joule concluded, based on his 1st (Chief) Law of Thermodynamics (being the Law of Energy Conservation) that the following must be true:
EQ (III) A = M, or
EQ (IV) 2Qh = m*c (t2-t1), or
EQ (V) M [metre-kg] = m*c(t2-t1) [calorie]
Based on Joule’s tests and measurements dividing by the right hand side of EQ (V) to obtain:
EQ (VI) 1 calorie =
4. By accurate measurements, the following were obtained:
(a) 1 calorie = 0.427 mkg
(b) 1 kilocalorie = 427 mkg
(c) 1 calorie = 4,186 x 107 ERG = 4,186 Joule
(d) joule = 1 Wattsecundum = 0,239 calorie
(e) 1 mkg = 2,34 calorie
(f) 1 kilowatthour = 860 kilocalorie
(g) 1 HorsePower = 632,4 kilocalorie/sec
5. Our main observation relative to Joule’s experiment is not the “conservation of Energy” as he stipulated, but that the “shaft energy” or torque can be measured by the generated heating energy, as will be seen in the next section, using actual measured test data for the EBM E-720 unit.
MY RESPONSE 3/2/2010
Dear Krisztina Sulyok M.Sc., B.Sc.Econ.
I am in receipt of your email of March 2,2010 and I require some clarification. I have attached the data from you web site please verify the data and elaborate where possible.
Tom Whitworth
BSEE, Attachment
ATTACHMENT
This is revised exhibit “A” attached to the Statutory Declaration Dated August 16,
2006.
REVISED EXHIBIT A
We the undersigned examined, operated and tested Electro ERG Ltd. (EEL) so called
E-720 Excess Power Producing Equipment (the EBM units) in the testing station of
EEL at Budapest, Hungary, and found the following for the largest E-720 Midget Power
Plant.
A: Open N2 Coil Test (Production Of heat Only)
- Total Inputted Power (Average of Several Tests) 24.90 KW
- Total Outputted Power ( Average of Several Tests) 32.29 KW
- Excess Output Power (2-1) 7.39KW
B. Closed Coil Test (Production Of Electrical Power and Heat)
- Total Inputted Power ( Average of Several Tests) 101.80 KW
- Total Outputted Power ( Average of Several Tests) 108.06 KW
- Excess Output Power ( 2-1 ) 6.26KW
Based on the above findings and data provided to us for other size smaller
EBM units, the EBM units in scaled up versions have the potential to produce
Increasing excess power.
Signed, sealed, and delivered in Budapest, Hungary, on August 16, 2006
Professor Dr. R. K. Varma Mr. Bruno Ciccotelli
V.P. Engineering and Operations
Norfolk Power
EBM TECHNOLOGIES RESPONSE 3/4/2010
Dear Mr. Whitworth:
It means that the efficiency of the EBM prototype units were 130 % and 106 % based of the test series of August 16,2006.
With best wishes,
Krisztina Sulyok
CONCLUSION
I now know it is a scam. No one can obtain efficiencies of 130% or even 106% on a driven-generator set. Losses are always present.
CommentsLoading...
Sheri,
The scam actually found me. My old friend called asking for advice as detailed in the previous hub. Once he told me there was a device that put out more energy than was put into it the scam was obvious.
You can't get something for nothing.
Tom, wheever anything sounds too good, I just type into the search bar " is such. And such" a sc? Big scam forums show up.
Sounds good to me!
Dear Tom,
I love it that you nailed these people to the wall. Frankly, I'm shocked they answered you. Their response reminded me of the 2000 page health care bill!
Pop,
My daughter Tracee has a former colleague and friend who works for the local Federal Prosecuter and I am forwarding all information to them.
Tom, Much of those figures were above my head, but you handled the scam beautifully. Good hub.
Couldn't understand the science, but certainly did understand that you proved them liars. And worse. Did you email your old friend about it?
Pamela,
Thanks, it really ticks me off when people try to prey on others.
Sheila b.
Essentially they're trying to say take $1.00 put it into a round tumbler and it comes out $1.30. It's an obvious scam.
Interesting? I am lost at it, but I will have to look at what they are doing. You are on the right route, I do not know what they are doing. Either energy has to be conserved, or another driving force, i.e. chemical reaction or nuclear comes into effect.
Keep on hubbing!
eovery,
I agree with you. I wish I could convince my friend of this. I afraid he's going to waste a lot of money or even get in trouble with the FBI.
The only device I am aware of where you can get more heat energy than input electrical energy is a heat pump. Which does not violate the Law of conservation of energy.
Dear Tom
I am one of very few people that have actually seen the EBM technology at work. I visited the EBM labs in Budapest as part of an Alternative Energy Investor delegation in 2009.
Our engineers were granted the opportunity to attend EBM technology lectures and partake in onsite measurements. After three days of testing our chief engineer and physicist (doctorate in mechanical and electric engineering) found the results of the testing to be true and correct. The over unity claims holds water and we found the science behind the technology to be solid. We also found the technology to be fully and scientifically documented - a rare find in today's free-for-all alternative energy market.
Sadly, until today, there is no physical proof (other than mathematical data extrapolation based on measurement) that EBM drive shafts would actually self sustain their own rotation once the input power has been cut. There are still no self running units - but apparently they are working on two units as we speak.
Now, as for your inquiry, may I comment as a patron of the sciences; Just because a university text book doesn't describe a phenomenon it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Each "discovery" should be treated with merit until such time as you have had conducted your own scientific due diligence thereof. The manner in which you conducted your investigation certainly holds no scientific relevance and should be discarded as a poor attempt at extracting information. You should know as a scientist and as an engineer, the quality of the question foretells the quality of the answer. From your emails it is evident that your questions where weak and thoughtless. I fear you may have betrayed his trust and mislead your friend (and many people having read this blog.)
High Tech African style. Hah!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry idiot I believe in the conservation of mass / energy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OrgName: African Network Information Center
OrgID: AFRINIC
Address: 03B3 - 3rd Floor - Ebene Cyber Tower
Address: Cyber City
Address: Ebene
Address: Mauritius
City: Ebene
StateProv:
PostalCode: 0001
Country: MU
I also see your location is in the middle of the ocean where the pirates operate. Fraud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One free shot per whacko buddy. Sorry I deleted you twice.
Give your real name and address and you can post away.
Hello Mr.Alternative Energy Junkie The link below proves you are a scammer.
EBM technology converts concentrated EM field energy into heat or kinetic one. It is not about breaching of any basic law of physics, but about a kind of free fuel, captured by an in-situ generated capture field. We never "generate" energy, but convert, transfer or transmit the existing one.
Yeah, and I can tear a pillow apart and assemble a chicken out of feathers. I guess scammers read hubs also!!!!!!!!!
How are things in Dusseldorf or is it Kaarst?
Tom,
We are not sure about your final remarks. The actual production could be more than the original size. We are not an Engineer. Though we know that Krisztina does not have ability to explain. They may have something....they even may not know.... may not have all answers yet.
However, their activities may concern anybody. We would like to know if anybody has put down payment to purchase the unit or licensing fee???
Energy Inquiry,
I'll make it very simple.
1. Anything that seems too good to be true isn't true!!!
2. If it violates the law of Conservation of Energy it is too good to be true.
3. Thus this device is a scam and it can't work!!!!!!!!!!
Tom,
Please send your email address or contact information at athbusiness@yahoo.com . We can chat and find out ....
We are also interested to know more about this people and technology. Thanks.
Energy Inquiry,
You have two different IP Addresses both in Herdon, Virginia on Cox Commuication. You are close enough to Washington D. C. to make inquiries to the Obama Adminstration!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are standing by your conservation of energy statement and why not; evidence is required to sway you. How much energy does it take to suspend a weight in a gravitational field? How much energy does it take to suspend a weight in a gravitational field if that weight is magnetic and repulsed by a natural magnetic field below it? From where does that energy come?
Huttate,
You obviously know nothing about physics, or you would know that energy is work per unit of time, and work is force applied over a distance. Since the object is suspended and obviously motionless, no energy is required!!!
Go take a physics 101 course and quit bothering me until you learn basic SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How are things in the UK this summer? I see your IP provider is in Yorkshire Dales!!!!!!!!!
Whitworth,
Just ask these guys, who insist on this scam, why haven't them already indicated the author of the "idea" to the Nobel Prize " and, additionally submit a special request to Nobel Prize administrators to receive all the money that have been unduly paid to older Physicists, like Einstein and others, because "their" Physics was surely wrong...
J G M, elect. engineer,
I love your idea, but with regrets I no longer suffer fools long enough to take the time to ask them anything!!!!!!
As said above, the chances of this machine working are basically zero. I would be only too grateful to apologise for this remark if the machine actually works but I am certain it is a scam or our known understanding of the laws of Physics are greatly flawed.
It is always interesting that these great 'discoveries' seem to come from countries where we in the West have difficulty contacting them. Coincidence? I think not.
I cannot understand, however, why there are insults flying around, and what is the significance of saying that someone is in the Yorkshire Dales followed by loads of exclamation marks? Does the Yorkshire Dales have some sort of law that says scientists or intelligent people cannot live there?
Let's have a bit of grown up conversation here guys.
Just as a follow up to my previous comments. If you google magnets4energy.com there is an advert for someone selling home generators using this system. He claims that it is a hidden secret and if the CIA finds out then he will be hunted by them so only the next 12 people can get his special offer. COME ON FOLKS. If he is worried about being hunted for revealing a 'CIA secret' then why on earth is he advertising world wide on the internet?
This advert alone must prove that the whole thing is a scam.
Paul Hughes,
One of my earliest rememberances is a saying my Dad always used, "If it sounds too good to be true it isn't true."!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He also said many other wise thing much too numerous to recount.
Thank you for your comment.
Tom,
As a graduate Chemical engineer, I agree with your opinion that this technology does not work due to the laws of conservation of mass and energy.
I do not however understand your 'proof' of this being a scam. You started off requesting information regarding their findings with your knowledge of the laws of physics already present. They forwarded you some information. You then pasted some information from their website and asked them to clarify. Their response was a correct calculation of the efficiencies produced.
Your conclusion:
"I now know it is a scam. No one can obtain efficiencies of 130% or even 106% on a driven-generator set. Losses are always present."
This not a conclusion based on the emails, you saw no information to prove or disprove your theory. You started off with an opinion, albeit scientific (the conservation laws), as did they (an apparent efficiency of >100%), you exchanged some information and then deduced their claims must be false.
You could have come to this conclusion without any emails being sent as you were never prepared to believe that overunity was possible.
Have I missed something?
AdamEgg,
What type of chemicals are you taking LSD it seem you are delusional in your opinion of my opinion!!!!!!
You state the calculations are correct so what!!!
If I say 2+2=4 what have I proved except that I can add and we are talking thermodynamicics did you get your degree from a box of Cracker Jax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come back with conclusions based on engineering and pyhsics or I'll delete your next comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As much as I respect your attitude of "I'll insult you and your degree and then delete your retort", I stand by what I said.
As for your comment regarding the calculations, you asked them to verify the meaning of a set of numbers and to elaborate. Admittedly they failed to answer your question, but in times gone by, people believed the Earth was flat. Anyone saying that the Earth was a spheroid would have been considered "wrong". Just because they did not provide a flat-Earth believer with the evidence to justify their claim does not mean that it is incorrect.
Also...no, by stating 2+2=4, you have not proven that we are taking Thermodynamics.
The scientific method determines whether or not things belong in science, results being published and then further testing to validate the results, not a pointless dialogue one person and another who sounds like they are the office administrator. Would the scientists involved really be sat in the office in front of the computer awaiting emails from people like you overusing the exclamation mark?
Thank you for your response - note how I did not resort to ridiculing you or your beliefs. Although I must still point out that I do agree with your opinion.
If I am so drug haggled and my degree is that worthless then maybe my belief in the laws of conservation could also be incorrect.
Thanks again.
I may have been harsh in my first response to you because if you care to look you will notice my entire purpose in writing this hub was to try to keep an old and dear friend who I love like a brother from investing money in what I believe with my heart, soul and intelligence is an Internet scam.
Like you he chose to ignore my advice and I guess like he that we can agree to disagree with hopefully no hard feelings on your part this time as I know there are none on mine this time. So let part company as friends until I find a subject on which we can agree my friend.
I hate you Whitworth. You've really went and done it this time.
Pure class on your part!!!!!
I don't know what to think. You think these people for years are providing fake data and building fake working models for the sake of getting investment money? They have been working on this for years and you think that they have known from day one that there results are fake for the sake of getting money? It all makes my head spin.
Andy12345
I don't assume that these scamsters have ever done an honest days work on anything!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can I spend the $47 and send you the kit? It's well worth my money to have you look at the materials and be able to point to the actual physical flaw, and not just the mathematical impossibility. I know, it would be a waste of your time, but still, it couldn't help but convince your friend.
ideaman,
I have a better IDEA!!!!!! I can save you the time and trouble. Just direct me to a credible scientific publication that has examined... ONE MIND YOU ONLY ONE, of these fanciful unihorns. Tell me where one of these "lepricons pots of gold" within 70 miles exists that I can examine and prove my doubting soul wrong.
Until please take a Walk!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry that a dogma from 19th century could block the minds of so many. You may study the same effect in other cases, like of MRI/MRA and or your domestic fridge.
This forum is not sufficient to change anyone's beliefs. Science is like religion: Can't be altered during one's life time.
T.Chen
There is one inescapable fact and that is if this is a real effect and the knowledge is being spread over the internet for $100 than there will soon be many operating magic generators supplying free electricity for the Citizens of Oz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD!!!!!!!!!
Yes Sir, it is a wonderful world.
When you consider a burning meteorite cloud (passed through space and time for millions of years)in our atmosphere, you have no problems with energy conservation, do you?
Open systems guided by different sets of rules...sorry.
Chen,
Take your meds!!!!
Better yet....join Hubpages and write your own hub to espouse your madness. Any further comments on this one by you will be deleted.
Tom, you don't appear to be a very pleasant person and your excessive use of the exclamation mark is both irritating and child like.
Being able to find a persons IP address proves, well... nothing!
I read your "investigation" and was excited at teh prospect on reading a factual and well thought out conclusion. I was disapointed to say the least.
As pointed out by AdamEgg you already knew the answer regardless of their reply.
TALES OF WOE-THE PLOT THICKENS - erm... not really.
Wing,
Leave your real name and address and I'll mail you 50 cents so you can go to a pay phone and call someone who gives a damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom,
If that generator produced 130 and was sustained using 30 out 130 then it would be impossible for the generator supply 106 to anything else. Simple math for fifth grader. I agree that promising to give that which is not available for use is like feeding 5000 with normal sized loaves of bread and a few fish and still able to walk away with 12 baskets of leftovers. In other word it would take divine intervention.
I believe in conservation and conversion like any logical person but pulling energy out of thin air would be called a wind powered turbine generator. You have every logical reason to be skeptical don't. Be another trump if something comes your way that may extends or advances the existing laws of physics. Note I did not say defy but extend and advance. Cold was a mere dream once but due to lack of technology like what we have today ideas of the are now more likely than ever with respect to the laws that govern our known universe.
objective perspective,
I agree. There may be things yet to be discovered. There is the mystery of dark energy and dark matter in the Universe and if humans are ever intelligent to discover their nature and how to harvest them, we may take giant leaps but until then I will be skeptical of getting something FROM nothing.
hi tom i am totally science dumb however is it posibal to mimic the earth... eg make a magnetic sphere with a N & S pole, somehow suspend a solid matter in the center and fill the rest up with a liquid (eg mercury) jump start the center matter spinning and......
I majored in math and I think many engineers are kind of stupid in some ways. I am open minded and will believe anything if its proven to me. You speak of these physics laws as if they are absolutely immutable and hence if something violates this law its a scam. Science is not a religion. If they set up one of these EBMs to provide electrical power to a house for 2 years with no power input or magnets running down or hidden wires and if the use of these spreads to many other houses I might tend to believe them, but I still wouldn't buy one of their units. This has a 99.9% chance of being a fraud, but I won't say anything is impossible.
Tom, Like you I didn't believe the hype or their claims, BUT if it was a complete scam, I couldn't understand why they would present it at Vienna Free Energy Conference in March of 2010. That is NOT the place that you would expect a scam to be presented! So if nothing else I feel Professor Szabo believes in his project.
My background is in computers and NOT power production so was interested in reading more about his research, but so far, I can only find the claims and not any documented facts. So I will pull up short on calling it a scam, BUT will say I am UNCONVINCED at this time.
Although I do hope that someone will make a breakthough in energy production that will rewrite all the text books, I want to see the documentation and not just wild claims, youtube videos that show "HOJO" motors running but no test read outs.
ImJustAvg,
Thanks for the read and your comment.
My EE education and experience tells me its a scam and my early education from mom and dad, i.e. if it sounds too good to be true it's not true, tells me it's a scam.
To all of you who disagree so disagreeably,
Show me one scientific article or one legitimate news article about this technology. Scientific discovery does not hide in the murky nether regions of the internet as you scum do.
I am sad to see a conversation like this goes on and on for months and months... why cant you both work together and try to find out the answer, the truth. Try to leave behind all your knowledge and believes, and go with an open mind and try to experience, and try to have a new out come.. lots of medical treatments years ago were considered a joke, and did not match what the book said, but they are been used today. What matters is not what we learned, and and we experienced. What matters is what we can learn next, and push our limits. Remember years ago to see an AIRBUS 380 in the sky was just a sketch or a dream, but now its a reality and guess what I hate to brake this to you there is a plane in production right now in germany that will hold much bigger capacity and its shaped like a triangle. So people, keep an open mind, lets add to our knowledge and not get stuck to ONLY WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED. And PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE .. respect each other, we are all human, scam, or whatever you wish to call it. Respect is an important element anywhere we go.
Traveler,
My friend and I love and respect one another. The Airbus 380 and all flying aircraft follow the laws of aerodynamics and newtonian physics. When they don't we read about another air disaster in the headlines.
All very interesting!!
Tom, may I ask what company you work for please?
Great topic!
I'm retired David.
Thanks for the read and comment.
I was bored and decided to look up new forms of energy. This came up.. Looked it up several places and here I am. I disagree with most of you. (Whitworth relax this is my opinion) Yes I am a scientist. Yes I am successful. My discipline is a little more subjective ( Geology ) and is a combination of Physics, Chemistry and Biology. To understand geology you need to be observation and have an open mind. I've seen all disciplines fail to explain things, I've seen nature reveal some powerful phenomenon that we are only beginning to truly understand. Science has no Law's, only theory. And I actually come from a discipline that has changes quite a but in fundamental "law". Plate Tectonics were heresy, now they are law. I've found great ore deposits in my life based on some principles, and others that still cannot be totally scientifically rationalized. In the science world we are pioneers.
As for this company. From my understanding they are saying they can somehow convert the energy present in Magnetic flux, to kinetic or thermal energy. We need to accept that our current understanding of a magnet post dates our laws of thermodynamics, FACT. Maybe there could have been a special permutation to the equation with magnetism factored in? I don't know... Truth is nobody knows.. Imagine the what the investment blogs would have been like for the wright brothers..(people cant fly...yada yada yada). Not saying these guys are onto something. But if it was an outright scam they still wouldnt be doing it. That I can assure you, somebody somewhere would have launched a class-action lawsuit against them or something.
As for academia. Doesn't mean crap... I could publish lots of papers with what I now have learned. My old professors are puppy dogs that were all to afraid to gets their hands dirty. Also, when I found a deposit, one of the richest mines ever. You better believe no body was publishing anything until we had a winner. Probably like these guys.
Just saying
rock,
Grab your retirement fund and invest it all in this untapped source of natural wonder. Took me a while to read your comment. It reminded me of Charlie Brown's teacher.
DEAR TOM
MY NAME ENGR. MUHAMMED ARIF BASRA, I AM INTERESTED TO GET MORE INFO ABOUT ENERGY BY MOTION. MY EMAIL engrmuhammedarifbasra@gmail.com AND basra@spacentime.net MY SOME CUSTOMERS ARE INTERESTED IN EBM DEVICES
Google it.
SheriSapp Level 3 Commenter 2 years ago
You are a bit too smart for me!!! Not a surpriseing though to find a scam out here in cyberspace!!